From the "People" Archives:

by Michelle Handelman

(indieWIRE/ 02.22.01) -- With "Breathe In/Breathe Out," New York director Beth B continues to explore the harrowing process of healing intergenerational trauma she began in her 1997 documentary about the treatment of juvenile sex offenders "Voices Unheard." In her latest work, B goes to the jungles of Vietnam with three Vietnam vets and their adult children in search of memories, forgiveness and that part of themselves they lost in the war. "Breathe In/Breathe Out" is B's second co-production with ZDF, her first being "Two Small Bodies" starring Suzy Amis and Fred Ward which premiered at the 1993 Sundance Film Festival, and her first with Open City Films' Blow Up Pictures.

Over the years, B's fiercely independent style has given us a haunting body of work including 1979's "The Offenders" (First Run Features), starring John Lurie and Lydia Lunch, the experimental video "Belladonna," featured at the 1991 Whitney Biennale, and "High Heel Nights," a short for Arte TV. What's remarkable about Beth B is the way she moves from film world to art world, and now television, without losing her maverick spirit. After opening at the 2000 Rotterdam Film Festival and the Toronto International Film Festival, "Breathe In/Breathe Out" has its New York Premiere tonight at New York's Walter Reade Theater. On the eve of the premiere, indieWIRE spoke with Beth about the casualties of war, working low budget and her new found home in reality TV.

indieWIRE: You've got so many companies on as co-producers in this project. How did you manage to structure it all?

"It was very scary. At the end of the day they would come into our rooms, take the masters and if there was something they didn't approve of, they would make us black it out."

Beth B: Ohh. . . It's always a nightmare (laughs) You know how it is, you start out in one place and involve other people as you go along. Working with ZDF was a godsend. I had worked with them before on "Two Small Bodies" and it seems like every few years they close their doors to American co-financing and I've been lucky enough to catch those doors when they're open. Eckart Stein (recently retired director of ZDF) brought this project in and he's just incredible in terms of saying here you are, go ahead, make your movie. He and I also spent a lot of time talking about the film. In fact it started out to be just about the vets and the more we talked, the more I started to see something that had not been addressed -- which was the way trauma, the effects of war -- are intergenerational. So through these talks with Eckart, I began to think about bringing in the children. Chantel Bernheim (Dune) got involved doing the contracts with ZDF and raised more money by negotiating French TV sales. Then when we went to Vietnam and needed post-production money, so Blow Up came into the picture. They already had experience shooting in Vietnam ("Three Seasons") so Jason Kliot and Joanna Vicente had great advice to offer. They said whatever you do make sure you work with a production crew there or you will be screwed.

iW: Why was it so necessary to work with a Vietnamese production crew?

B: Because you're required to travel with a government censor and a production co. representative from Vietnam. In other words, the government has complete control over what gets produced there and if you don't work within their system, you risk losing your entire film. They basically told us what we could and couldn't shoot. For instance, when we went to My Lai, there were Vietnamese people working on site, but we weren't allowed to film them. So when John Mattson kneels before this woman to ask for forgiveness we couldn't film that. Which at first just mortified me, but then Nick's reaction to it and his telling it to us -- there was such a power in that. It was very scary, though. At the end of the day they would come into our rooms, take the masters and if there was something they didn't approve of, they would make us black it out. They held on to all the masters and then after the production manager followed it all up, eventually they got mailed back to me in the US.

iW: What was your selection process like to choose these men?

B: When I first began I just started to call different vet centers. I did a lot of interviews with people that were recommended by the vet centers and one of the vets (John Howe) came out of that series of interviews. Then I saw a film called "The Vietnam Challenge" and Jose Ramos was in that film. It seemed like he was just on the verge of going through some very intense things in regards to his experience in the Vietnam War, so I called him. Then I got in touch with a monk who was also a vet and he gave me a list of people who had been on retreats and oddly enough, Nick Flynn, one of the vet's sons was on that list. So I called Nick and he said, "well, my stepdad was a vetŠmaybe you should call him." That's usually how I approach my projects. I put out a lot of lines into different communities, and then interview people to see who is the most appropriate.

iW: Did it take much convincing for these men to participate?

B: No. Jose and John Howe were very excited about going. John Mattson was the most concerned and several times he called saying, "I don't know if I should go." Then a couple days before we were leaving, he called and said " Can I bring my 9mm?" and I said "A gun! John, you cannot bring a gun on the airplane, they'll arrest you!" and he said, "I don't think I can feel safe going back there without a weapon." That's how nervous he was up to the very last moment. Of course he left his gun at home.

iW: The visit to the My Lai massacre monument seems to be a pivotal point for all the characters. What was the back story on that moment? Was there more happening on the bus that we don't see?

B: Basically the back story was that it was on the schedule, but you know how it is, sometimes you just deal with the schedule one day at a time, so many of the vets hadn't given it any forethought. That morning when we said we're going to My Lai, everyone started to deal in a deeply emotional way. John Howe said, "I don't think I'm going to go in," and Jose said "I don't know either." So when we arrived it was very important to just put the camera on them and let them figure it out. Let us know what they were feeling and what they wanted to do or didn't want to do. You know directors approach documentary film in all different kinds of ways. For me, it's very important that the people who I'm working with feel safe and that they have a choice. Being so low budget, we only had one camera; ideally I would have kept a camera in the bus while another followed those into the monument.

iW: Why did you focus on the father/child relationship and leave out the mother?

B: Certainly the wives were greatly affected too, but for me it was more about intergenerational trauma. A lot of my work has to do with what we pass on from one generation to the next -- and the question for change. Before I did this, I did the juvenile sex offender film and there, about 96% of them had been offended themselves. Also I think the men would have been much more censored if the wives were there (laughs.) I wanted to place the men in Vietnam free from the constructed barriers of the marriage.

iW: I'm sure you were affected by the Vietnam War as you were a teenager during that time. Did making this film help answer any questions for you?

"Why haven't I sold out? Actually, I've been reevaluating this in the past year. I feel like I work so fucking hard and get so little in return. I juggle all these things so that hopefully one of them will come through so that I can just continue to survive."

B: I definitely had prejudice about anyone who had been in the Vietnam War. I was sympathetic to the Vietnamese and very anti-military. For me, making this film opened up a lot of barriers I had with myself in terms of engaging with people who are in the military and being able to sympathize with them. Also, I don't think I ever really understood how traumatic it was for them. Especially in the case of Vietnam, because they were so young, and many didn't have a choice. So I think it opened my eyes to a lot of things I didn't want to see and didn't want to hear and helped me to evolve.

iW: Looking back at "Black Box" to "Belladonna" to "Two Small Bodies," your work delves darkly into conditions of personal and political entrapment. I was wondering if you see the human condition as an exercise in futility.

B: Oh no. That's where I see my evolution has come between my old work and my more recent work. When I was younger, all I could see was the entrapment, the alienation, the dark abyss; I actually reveled in that state. But as I evolved as a person, I understand that as human beings we are capable of an incredible and profound transformation and change. I see this shift in my work starting with "Two Small Bodies" where these two characters battle each other, try to destroy the other, but they end up coming to a place of reconciliation and acceptance. Even in "Voices Unheard," where it's easy to see the cycle of sexual abuse, there were a lot of kids saying I want the cycle to stop with me. There was hope. To me it was a very hopeful film in the same way "Breathe In/Breathe Out" is a hopeful film. It's saying we can go the edge of trauma and terror and come back to recreate ourselves. We can create positive ways of living our lives with the awareness of where we've been and what we've been through.

iW: How have you managed to stay so fiercely independent all these years? How come you haven't made the proverbial "sell out"?

B: I want to know the same thing: why haven't I sold out? (laughs) Actually, I've been reevaluating this in the past year. I feel like I work so fucking hard and get so little in return. I'm barely able to support myself and I juggle a million different things. I do experimental video, documentary film, feature film, photography, gallery installations, theater. I juggle all these things so that hopefully one of them will come through so that I can just continue to survive and I'm really so exhausted. I've been trying to get this feature off the ground with Good Machine for the last 3 or 4 years and we were supposed to be in South Africa right now, but a third of the financing just fell through.

Feature filmmaking is really hard because it's such a waiting game, so one of the things I've started to focus on is television. With reality TV becoming so big, I find that there's a place for me in television now, which is sort of shocking, because I never thought that would happen. I'm doing projects for HBO and Court TV, but I don't feel like I'm selling out or compromising because they're all my own ideas. I'm actually getting paid for the first time in my life and that's really exciting. It's all about working on what you're passionate about. I have this one project right now everyone is saying, "It's so commercial!" And I'm confused, because I've never had anyone say that about my work before.

[Michelle Handelman is an award-winning filmmaker, writer, and media artist currently teaching in the Media Studies Department of The New School University. Handelman's feature documentary "BloodSisters" (winner of 1998 Bravo Award) is available on home video. Her writing has been published in "Herotica 3," (Plume Books) and "Apocalypse Culture" (Feral House Press) along with Filmmaker Magazine, Art Forum and Film Threat.]